Consent stuff

Hey everyone ! <3 I had an idea and I think I need a funding for that, but I have no idea how much this stuff would cost in Sweden. In order to make communication and consent more visible, fun, I was thinking to get pins, that we could share to people at the gates for example:

“No hugs”
“Hugs welcome”
Rainbow flag
Different pronouns pins etc…

Any ideas/comments on this? Would it be a good idea?

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I think this fall under radical self-reliance and radical self-expression. Investing in pins is most likely a waste that cost money and create moop. We tried to use ribbons to give non-verbal signal of the degree of consent at Free Flow but it was a failure and the idea was abandoned in a few weeks.

It’s better to remind people that they should ask for consent and give proper information when they want to give a gift or engage in physical contact with strangers at the event.

Great point, thank you for sharing! You are right, we definitely want to avoid mooping!

To more serious issues:

My thoughts and notes from 05/03/2020 video meeting

  • Since lot of people will come who are not burners, we need to make sure consent issues are highlighted
  • We need to step up regarding the seriousness of the issue
  • Collaborating team with the Sanctuary, Angels/security, and Greeters about consent and risk management - Should we make a chat just for this team?
  • An actual action plan must be made in case of an emergency
  • If something bad happens, we need to report what happened, and also these people have to be banned for all the future events

Can I maybe have your material from previous years:

  • What kind of different posters, how much, where? Is consent lead designing these? Can we have funding for the printing etc?
  • Anything else what have you done at the gate previous years?
  • Do we need a consent game perhaps?

Is there a way we can make, at least courage, most of the first time burners to take a shift? I think the more people that engage and are willing to engage with the community, it can lessen the possibility of risky behavior. But I don’t know how this would work and be possible in reality, regarding the amount of people that are coming.

However, I want also want to mention that assuming that a “real burner” won’t ever do any unwanted behavior is naive, because it can be anyone! So, also we need to keep each others accountable, also call out your mates and let’s take care of each other. :slight_smile:

Other consent issues:

  • Taking photos
  • Gifting & Food - always enclose what does it contain

Luckily consent is fun 99% of the time! So let’s make it also fun!!! Lots of loooooove

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Link to my comments to consent in the planning meeting thread:

In previous years we did not have a consent lead, we decided to include that role because of what happened at previous years. There have been posters in the toilets at Borderland, maybe you can connect to the person who made them to get access to them. It might also be worth asking Kim Stegmayr on facebook, she might have some materials. You’re welcome to design your own ones of course if you want to :slight_smile:

Printing of poster should be included in the budget but since we don’t know our total budget I don’t know yet how much you can get

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Super good that this is handled and taken seriously!

Some initial thoughts:

  • What does it mean to be “banned for all the future events”? Do you mean burns in general or Urban Burn specifically? Since there are no real central organization, this might be very tricky. Also, how will the process go? Who will be the jury? (Please note that I do not mean this to diminish the problem, but to highlight some difficulties that will come up)
  • What do you mean with “report”? Do you mean to the police? Remember that the victim of a situation might not want to go to the police, and might find it disrespectful if we do. I think police have to be contacted in communication with the victims.
  • I do not personally believe in the idea of “making” anyone do anything at a burn. I do however think that everyone should take a shift, since it’s a great way of understanding what is up and getting into the community! Encouragement ftw, etc.

The collaboration you’re talking about seems great and essential! The way we greet people is so important!

Regarding material, I have the consent info sheet from Borderland last year somewhere if you want to look at it!

PS. I don’t think your pin-idea is bad actually. I get that it might not have worked that smooth on free flow, but Urban Burn is a pretty big and intense event with a lot of newbies. I don’t think it will help prevent the worst situations, but it might certainly help create a better feeling of safety, in a fun and engaging way.

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Hi guys :slight_smile:
Here are my thoughts including the link to my reply in the planning meeting comments:

@jossu - loving your commitment to this issue, so keep going. :smiley:

  • BANNING FOR FUTURE EVENTS - We are one burn community so it should be all burn events in general. Of course, the leads of the event can decide if they want to enforce it or not. we just write down such people’s names and social security numbers and put them in a list that could be circulated between different events organizing teams. We can discuss the process in a call of how to deal with valid questions Filip raised.
  • REPORT - YES to POLICE. But we should only do it if the victim is ready. He/she should just know that they have all our full support if they want to do it including, our commitment to give them any level of anonymity they want from the public eyes. So I agree that 1st communication is with the victim(s).
  • SHIFTS - Agree again. But if we encourage people enough it is possible.
  • PIN IDEAS - great again but I doubt if we will have the money. What if we create the designs and ask participants to make one for themselves in some neon colors. We can also ask to get it sponsored by some organization that works in this area (without breaching the principle of commodification).
  • CONSENT INFO SHEET - Yes please. :slight_smile: Please put it in UB Google drive so we all have access.
  • POSTER PRINTING - IF we don’t get enough budget, I will have no concerns in using my own company’s printers to print them in color on A3-A4 sizes. I am 100% sure, people in our facility will not have a problem if I print 30-40 pages. This is too important to avoid and we cannot see this as a cost. I will ask them next week already about this.
  • TAKING PHOTOS - Absolutely clear communication that they are not allowed. We can also buy stickers to be put on the cameras. Not very expensive. If they violate it, they can be thrown out of the event.
  • SEPARATE CHAT - I AM NOT in favor to make a separate chat for it. Let everyone read this forum thread on this topic. However, I will suggest having separate regular virtual meetings (like yesterday), between this group of roles you are suggesting. A topic such as this needs to be discussed more interactively instead of just reading it and then writing. It also will create more engagement.

This is all from my side for now. If you do not agree to any of my points, please don’t mind raising your objection :smiley:

Have a wonderful weekend. Much Love! :heart: :hugs:

That’s not true though. There is no “one burn community”. It’s completely decentralized. There is no way to do this in practice and we should not pretend that there is.

That’s completely illegal, and against both Swedish and European law on personal data. It’s actually a very serious offense.

I want to urge for a discussion on this that does not mean a lot of rules that we cannot enforce. Photos is an issue, but I do not think that we should ban it. It should be considered as an act that needs consent (“can I take a photo of you, and would you mind if I share it my private social medias?”). We do not want an event that becomes a whitch hunt where we’re throwing people out (who would throw them out btw?). We want an event built on trust and safe spaces. I believe that this mentality is why we do not have as many issues with this as normal events (but we should always develop further of course).

It’s good to have an action plan if something were to happen. But please, let us not play judges in our own court. That will create a very strange mentality. I would personally want to focus this work on preventive actions, and victim support. I do not think that “we” should go to the police (who is “we”?). I think that the community should be supportive to victims so that they feel safe in going to the police.

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Well put Filip.
It’s a solid and safe system that we need to develop that works and is communicated to all and fits into our way of being.

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I was not talking in terms of organization but that we all follow the same 11 principles.:slight_smile: By sharing in events I meant mostly events from Sweden because I am confident that some, or all, organizers for these events know each other. The knowledge can easily be passed around like we are learning from past events.

You are surely right here with GDPR in effect now. But I will also check with some other friends who are organizers, lawyers and know someone in police to understand how do other events organizers handle such issues? There must be a way to not allow people from re-entering. Yes if it means only banning from Urban Burn in the future, then I am okay with that.

@filipnystrom - Absolutely, the focus should be first on positive preventive actions and creating a safe atmosphere.

  • PHOTOS - It is definitely a consent topic. Stickers were just a random idea. But what if someone takes a photo without consent - we MUST HAVE an action plan in such a case. This topic for me is more in light of considering the sex-positive space(s) we will have. I am not worried about throwing someone out, if we really have to, because we will have security that can do that for us.
  • POLICE - I agree with you and will clarify here that I didn’t mean we should go to the police. That can only happen if a victim wants to go and report, and in such a case we need to be there to give them any support they need.

What we can do, which would be a lot of work, is create a platform where this information can be entered, which will respond yes or no to queries. The data stored in the database can be a non-reversible hash, or we can require that all members consent to having their rule violations registered in this security system. To prevent abuse, events using this platform should have to pay a small fee, which can be spent on costs associated with it. They can of course run their own instance for free but then it will not have access to the global data.

In order to get widespread adoption, this would need to be developed in collaboration with various teams from events around the world.

This is something that will not be done in time for UB 2020, so it’s a bit off-topic.

Hey everyone thank you for the replies, great points - loving it!!! Thanks for the hard work and dedication yall :slight_smile:

Police - Definitely agree, we should not in any terms force anyone to report if they do not want it. But in case of this as you all said, support the victims in their own terms.

Reporting - Referring to Snurre - this is something that I was thinking about… Sometimes people do not want to report to the police, because they are scared, or shocked, or in denial, or they don’t want to deal with it right away. But maybe later on, they can change their mind. I think the most important thing is, that even someone would not want to proceed with the police or other officials, it should not mean we should forget the incident happened. There might be a case where someone would want to report later (also there is a possibility that later on we find out that that person assaulted multiple people), and I think we should have some proof what happened at that time. But as you said, then we have to think about other legal stuff, like how to store this information, who has the right and the key to the information, and so on… In this case it comes complicated. And it is lot of work as you said. I would not mind to do an initiative this, if I was not in the middle of my master’s studies and in other projects. :smiley: I know that Nowhere had some kind of “report box”, I do not know what they do with the information, or what Borderland for example has, but I can try to find out.

Banning - Sometimes even telling the people that they are not welcome can be enough. I reckon the community is not too big in Sweden, that if the words spreads, it might be enough. Of course we cannot legally stop them, or take any other action that might be actually illegal in the end ( agreed that we should not act as “official authorities”), but let them know “socially pressured” that they are not welcome anymore, or possibly some cases after a period of time has elapsed, or they have shown remorse and a change in behavior (in less serious cases - aka. just being sleazy ass).

Photos - I also think we should not ban taking photos, because most of people want to take them/do not mind, but yes, we need to make sure photos are not taken or shared without consent.

Separate chat - Agreed that the information should we available for everyone, however what comes to the meetings and consistent communication, maybe the “urgent stuff”, and meeting appointments could be discussed in Facebook chat? Here it get’s kinda lost. Facebook is more clear in that sense, personally find this forum very confusing still hahhah

Pins - If not funded, we (Meaghan and I) might get them just as a gift with out own money :slight_smile: they make a great gift and most people keep them as they are small and a nice memory, and less mooop than other discard-able items. Also a nice memento with an important message!

I created a google drive for Meaghan and I, and would love to share our “Consent folder” (I already drafted some trial posters) if we can make a big Urban Burn folder, and then put all the shared files under that? What do you think?

love xxxxx

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Hi Jossu

Great points, and I have no alternate/complementary opinions at this point as I read them now :slight_smile:

Please try to find about the Report Box @Nowhere and Borderland examples, we can learn something from their experiences for sure
We have a common Urban Burn gmail address which has it’s own Google Drive, so you can uplaod everything there. All leads have access to it.

Also, very nice of you to think of gifting the pins but hold on, before you put your own money in it, please. Can you get me a couple of details first -

  • how many you want to make?
  • what’s the total cost?
  • how many days before you need to put an order (or decide to do it yourself)?

This way I will know the deadline by when I need to give you an answer if we can spare money for it! :slight_smile:

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I made the folder now, and there you can see some example posters as well! I’ll be back in business with the pin-talk :wink:

about photos: Fully agree with Jossu, people usually want photos because at burns is where people often feel most beautiful (I do for sure). There are certain spaces, like playrooms, where photos might be banned but that’s up to the space holders to make sure that people are aware.
And I don’t think we need an action plan for photo consent. “Hey, can you please delete this picture and not take pictures without asking first” is usually enough :slight_smile:

I want to add a comment on banning. And please note that this is really dependent on the magnitude of the act and the effect on the victim. I do think we should consider the strange effect the meeting with the burner community can be for many people, with a lot of open sexual energy and nudity, and people making out with each other + play rooms etc. If you’ve grown up in a strictly normative patriarchy (like all of us) and have not thought much about your own masculinity etc, I do think that it can be easy to slip. This is, of course, not ok - and we need to have an action plan for it. But I also think that we should be able to forgive bad behavior and see that people makes mistakes.

This is obviously a sensitive question, and we should not forgive anything everywhere. But we should consider different angles than just throwing shame around the room.

Please argue against this if you feel like it. I just don’t think pointing fingers will do us much good in many circumstances.

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PS. great work @jossu - I’m very glad you’re on this! <3

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Glad to be on the team! <3
Yes this is a very good point. Consent is tricky in a sense that also there is lot of different misunderstandings what is consent and what is not. Especially, if you have not never been in a sex-positive and kinky environment. And right, where you really even draw the line as being “ban-worthy-action”. Everyone make some mistakes, especially when slightly intoxicated, it is very easy to slip. I maybe have personally done something myself sometimes, but I not even be aware of it. Something that I might consider border-crossing to me, might not be border-crossing to someone else. “Just sex” and violence are often difficult to distinguish during the experience is happening. Confusion around understanding what has happened to you, or what have you done to someone else, may be produced by the fact that our most personal experiences are shaped by external forces, concepts that are created by someone else. I really do not like using the “blurred lines” as a term but this is where it comes controversial… The comprehension of these situations as what is “real assault” and what is not is usually shaped by the common understandings and discourses that are not really of our own making. Especially if the person is someone you know well, this might be very hard to understand in the moment. (This is why I think it is also important that we should not forget the incident, even someone would not want to report something right away.)

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Well put!